Save the freakin' clutch!

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Save the freakin' clutch!

Postby brillo » Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:28 pm

OK, I'm large for my size. Two hundred and (garbled, garbled) pounds. Like 50 lbs. more than the bike is designed to carry. OK, I admitted it, you happy?

I can't help but notice that I don't accelerate from a stop, or any time actually, as fast as my 170 lb. friend on an identical bike. And, of course, my top speed is several mph less than his. Same scenario if we change bikes, so not the bike's fault. I do go faster down hills, though...

I'm concerned about the clutch, actually the clutches. I read the book on it, I do NOT want to overhaul those puppies any sooner than necessary. So, I'm asking the literati of the moped world to chime in with some suggestions to save the freakin' clutch! i.e., Clutch-saving riding techniques, some kind of magic booger juice to put in the crankcase to sweet-talk those skins into sticking around just a bit longer, incantations, whatever works.

Or, conversely, you might let me know the exact protocol you have employed in the past to peel those suckers right off the metal asap. That could be enlightening, too, in an negative feed-back sort of way.

On a related issue, so this is part B of this post, what about my shocks, man? They bottom out, man. Bummer. I saw on a site that shall remain nameless (they sell SPORTS products by the BAY.com) that they have HD, adjustable, Tomos replacement rear shocks for a heavy load. HA! Heavy load! But this isn't a Tomos, this is a Kreidler Flory that's 29 years old. Different eye to eye distance, mine is 240 mm or 9.45". I looked, man, at ALL the major and some of the minor moped parts dealers in the US, and it's a jungle out there, man. A shockin' jungle, man. But no one sells the ones I need. Yes, I know, look to the east, across the big water, to the fatherland where the bike was born...

but these are just shocks, man. Shocks.

Is there some vendor you know of in the States who has a wide assortment of shocks for, say, ATVs possibly, or oldtimer, odd-duck stuff? I gotta think somebody somewhere in this country carries something other than shocks for a 2003 Camry, for #%^!@ sake.
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re: Save the freakin' clutch!

Postby pehuskey » Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:22 pm

You should be able to find adjustable motorcycle shocks that are the same size. They can't be that different.
Fight apathy...or don't, whatever.
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re: Save the freakin' clutch!

Postby TowerTower » Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:02 pm

What you want to do, big boy, is put a larger rear sprocket and/or smaller front sprocket on your bike. This will reduce clutch strain on take-off, help you keep up with your pal, and help save your cork.

Downside is you'll loose a little top-end speed unless you compensate with a performance muffler and a little carb work.

Replace your ATF fluid with slightly heavier weight and make sure its topped up. This will increase the speed at which the transmission shifts further reducing cork stress.
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re: Save the freakin' clutch!

Postby trik20 » Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:26 pm

Dont know what bike or clutch you have..but if theres rubbers in there make sure you use
non-detergent oil..detergent kills rubbers faster.
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re: Save the freakin' clutch!

Postby jswift » Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:38 pm

I've always wanted to replace the rear shocks with a firm piece of steel the same length as the shock, that would not give. However, it might break the rear strut. I.E. NO REAR SUSPENSION like a Vespa CIAO. That would help the lard asses like me. Any reason why not, or a motorcycle shock that would fit (part number please) and be heavy duty?
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re: Save the freakin' clutch!

Postby brillo » Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:29 pm

Well, I found the shocks, with springs and adjustable at PartsProUSA.com. They are shocks for an ATV. Price, not bad. Looked for hours though.

My thanks to Tower² for the sprocket-change suggestion. I read about that for better hill-climbing, but didn't think of it in terms of clutch-saving. Like a one tooth change, right? And for also suggesting slightly heavier ATF fluid. See, I knew there was some special booger juice that the smarties would know about.

Now, about the incantations and fung shui...
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re: Save the freakin' clutch!

Postby pehuskey » Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:00 am

the best thing you can use for your clutches is whatever the manufacturer designed them for. Tomos=Type A ATF
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re: Save the freakin' clutch!

Postby frenchy » Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:43 pm

Any shifting differences between either 10W30, or straight 30 weight oil
were not even noteworthy. They all came in around 15mph.
Page 10 of 06 Revival manual states, "ATF A, or ATF F" is to be used
in gearbox.
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re: Save the freakin' clutch!

Postby ryoder » Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:30 pm

Yeah, I would not try putting anything else in it except ATF A. Don't use regular ATF. ATF Type A is very hard to find, but its worth the peace of mind knowing you actually put in the stuff the book calls for. I was able to find it at a BP gas station. Best place to find it is small local grocery stores or small gas stations. I've heard a lot of talk about using Dextron III as the replacement for ATF A, I forget what I read that was bad about that. Same with type F...I heard that it makes the cork deteriorate faster. Don't know if any of that is true, but theres no point in risking it.
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re: Save the freakin' clutch!

Postby TowerTower » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:36 pm

What you guys have heard about oil is mostly old-wives tales, oil company hype, legend, and heresay. I'll bet you can't even substantiate the deteregent-nondetergent claims with any scientifc evidence. Mostly, becasue oil companies do not publish repeatable/scientifc oil comparisons, or reveal their additive package ingredients, as those are considered competitive advantage, trade secrets. Big raspberry to all that.

If you're handy with a screwdriver, then take the weights off and reduce their mass with a grinder, or cut the springs shorter, or drill holes and then top up with the thinnest non additive synthetic oil you can find.

My suggestion for the screwdriver challanged folks with a need to increase the rpm at which their moped automatic shifts, is to put in a heavier weight ATF oil. The "A" is for "automatic", "F" is for "Ford", both typically are for automobile automatics with tiny little passages and layered gearing, and hoses, etc etc. But those aren't the only ATF oils around. Some go as heavy as 90W. None of that applies to mopeds.

You could put in straight SAE 50W oil or gear grease If you really wanted to discourage those counterweights from moving. Mind the downside is poorer gas mileage and sluggish acceleration the thicker the oil, as those tiny h.p. motors struggle to turn the gears, never mind the rear wheels. Or, you could put in synthetic 0w30 if you wanted to go the other way, and get better gas mileage and faster shifting.

As long as you steer clear of foamy additives, your tranny and cork or rubber will not explode, rot, fry your foot, or swim to China.
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re: Save the freakin' clutch!

Postby jswift » Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:36 pm

thanks Tower. have I passed the torch on to you?
--"After a fell day in the saddle, there is not too much numb bum from the soft comfort seat" www.scooterdepot.us/50cc-Gas-Moped-Scooter-p-436.html"
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re: Save the freakin' clutch!

Postby TowerTower » Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:01 pm

My response style in this thread is aimed at matching the original poster's style and language, while providing an opinion that is consistent with my experience and knowledge of the topic.

Although it sounds by your comment, that you agree with the response I've posted, @jswift, you'll still have to keep carrying those torches of yours.
Sorry, :-(
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re: Save the freakin' clutch!

Postby jswift » Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:29 pm

I've dropped those torches. OOPS. I lit a bonfire, because I forgot to extinguish them. Good day, eh. In other news Edmonton, Alberta is on fire. Mayor Tommy Shanks Said: Hi. How are ya? I'm Fine.
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re: Save the freakin' clutch!

Postby brillo » Fri Jul 25, 2008 5:24 am

To follow up on the sprocket change suggestion from Tower², I read somewhere, maybe here, that it is best to go with a sprocket with a prime number of teeth to minimize sprocket and chain wear. When I first read that I though boh-oh-gus, but I thought about it a while, and now I'm not sure.

HERE'S THE ARGUMENT:

If a chain link OR sprocket tooth happens to get a little futtzed up, using the sprocket with a prime number of teeth results in the futtzed part matching up with any given location on the good part the least number of times, and therefore reduces wear on the good part, e.g., my Kreidlers have 12 front teeth, 36 rear. As the chain moves along the sprocket (or vice versa, however you see it), any specific tooth matches up with any specific link every third revolution. However, if I reduce the front sprocket to 11 teeth OR increase the rear sprocket to 37 teeth, a specific tooth matches up with a specific link only once every 396 or 444 revolutions, depending on which sprocket is changed. Big difference. Right?

I'm not sure.

Think about it. With a prime number of teeth, the futtzed part, say a stiff chain link, is still contacting and doing whatever it does to the teeth, it's just doing it to more teeth, but less often to any specific tooth. With a non-prime number of teeth, like I have, 12 front, 36 rear, there would be more focused damage and less random damage. In the end, the sprocket would have mostly good teeth with a few beat up ones. (I've actually seen that on a bicycle and wondered how it happened.) But with the prime number of teeth, all would be a little beat up, but none badly, in theory.

I suppose the non-prime number scenario would end up failing earlier, but how much earlier.... hmmmm.

I think the real message is to keep everything lubed and lined up, and to find and fix the futtzes.

Now that I got that out, back on track.

Where do I find an 11 tooth front sprocket or a 37 tooth back sprocket for a '79 Kreidler Flory? Yes, I am willing to (pay through the nose to have someone) root around the musty warehouses in Germany and the Netherlands (online) but first I have to ask... Do they/ did they ever make such things? If not, maybe I'll just stick with Tower²'s weights, springs, and ATF mods.

Oh, yeah, I guess I could also go on a diet...

Likely, not likely? Let's take a vote.

I mean let's vote on the chance of finding the sprocket, not the weight loss. I think we all know the chance of that.
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re: Save the freakin' clutch!

Postby glhman222 » Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:11 am

if you replace every drink you have with water you will loose som weight, no alcohol either do this for a month and you will see results throw in some excercise and some better food and im sure youl be down to 200 in no time
Mopeds are like fat chicks they're fun to ride until your friends find out.
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